Redesigning Book Covers (with G.M.White)

G.M. White has always been an avid reader, a love of the written word instilled in him by his parents at an early age. This may or may not have something to do with the fact that he was a very talkative child and the only time he was quiet was when he had his head in a book. Anyway, we’ll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. He lives on St Martin’s, in the Isles of Scilly, with his wife and son. Like many people on the islands he wears a few different hats. Now a full time stay at home dad, he also works several part time jobs, is on the local Coastguard rescue team, sits on the committee for St Martin’s Island Hall and Reading Room, plays cricket (poorly) for St Martin’s Cricket Club, and somehow finds time to write.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Common book cover mistakes
Why genre research is important
How fantasy covers have changed over time

Listen to G.M.White discuss his cover redesign process:

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Books Mentioned

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ellie: Hello, and welcome to The Writer’s Mindset with me, Ellie Betts and a little Frankie puss has come to say hi. Kristina is still very hard at work on our patron exclusive series, HEALTHY HABITS.

[00:00:12] Ellie: We’re here to create a community of authors who persevere, or their most productive selves, and publish at a speed that they are comfortable with.

[00:00:21] Ellie: This week I connected with GM White to discuss his journey through updating his covers several times and the impact it had on his success.

[00:00:31]

[00:00:43] Ellie: G M White has always been an avid reader. A lover of the written word was instilled on him by his parents at a very early age. This may or may not have something to do with the fact that he was a very talkative child. And the only time he was quiet was when he had his head in a book. Anyway, we’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

[00:01:01] Ellie: He lives on St. Martins in the Isles of Skilly with his wife and son. Like many people on the islands, he was a few different hats. Now, a full-time stay at home dad, he also works several part-time jobs, is on the local coast guard rescue team, sits on the committee for St. Martin’s island hall and reading room, plays cricket (poorly) at St. Martin’s cricket club, and somehow finds time to write.

[00:01:24] Ellie: I do want to say a big thank you to all of our patrons for your support. We couldn’t do that. As a patron, you get early access to all of our episodes, bonus content and our undying gratitude for supporting all of the hard work that goes into creating these episodes to inspire and motivate you. And as I mentioned, Kristina has been working on a patron exclusive series called HEALTHY HABITS.

[00:01:47] Ellie: We’ve had a lot of great feedback so far. It’s definitely worth checking out HEALTHY HABITS is available on our Patreon. If you want to find out more, visit patreon.com/writersmindset.

[00:01:59]

[00:02:03] Ellie: So with me today then is G M White, uh, fantasy author and patron of The Writer’s Mindset. Welcome to the show.

[00:02:13] Geoff: Thank you very much for having me.

[00:02:16] Ellie: Excellent. No problem at all for our lovely listeners, could you first tell us who you are and what is it you do please, Geoff?

[00:02:23] Geoff: Uh, yep. So my name is Geoff, I publish as GM White. Uh, I’m an independently published fantasy author and the series that I’ve been working on for the last few years is the Royal Champion Series. Uh, first book of which is the Swordsman’s Lament and then I’ve also got the prequel novella out which is the Swordman’s Intent. And the second full book in the series, the source Swordsman’s Descent will be coming out at the end of June.

[00:02:45] Geoff: You can see I’ve gotten myself into a little pattern with the names there. Um,

[00:02:50] Ellie: I love a theme. I love a theme. That’s what sells, people like that. The first book, the Swordsman’s Lament, when did that one come out? And what kind of covers did you use for that book?

[00:03:03] Geoff: It came out September 2019. Um, and originally, I had quite a, I dunno, I was trying to go for almost like a slightly traditional fantasy cover, you know? I sort of looked at some of my favourite covers and with the designer, I, I put together a sort of mood board of stuff that I liked and I sent it off and it came back and it was this kind of, you know, castle with a figure in front and all that sort of thing.

[00:03:29] Geoff: And it looked, it looked all right on the, um, on the paperback. But, um, you know, it needs to be good as a thumbnail. It needs to look good as a thumbnail on Amazon, so that didn’t really work. So I sort of rejigged that one into this. So that the, the chapel and the front was much more, a much larger, much further forwards.

[00:03:47] Geoff: But yeah, I think, I think one of the issues with that initial cover was that I was going for things that I liked from when I started reading fantasy the nineties. And it wasn’t necessarily that, that current. Which was one of my issues to begin with I think.

[00:04:00] Ellie: I mean, that makes sense. Makes sense. Um, but you’ve changed the covers for the whole series. Well, the whole series, the books you’ve got out so far, twice now. Can you tell us just a bit about why they’ve changed twice?

[00:04:11] Geoff: Well with, um, I mean The Swordsman’s Lament has now had four covers, um, four covers. The Swordsman’s Intent has had three.

[00:04:19] Geoff: Um, and yeah, The Swordsman’s Descent, even though it’s not out yet has already had two different covers. And the reason being, I don’t think I quite got it right. And none of this is the designer’s fault. I think it’s down to the brief, um, that I gave them and, and just trying to find something that got across the energy of the books and the kind of the sub genre and that sort of thing.

[00:04:42] Geoff: So as I say with the first, the first, um, original cover design, I put together that mood board I sent it to the designer, um, this is the sort of thing I’m looking for. This is what I like, blah, blah, blah, and they came back with something that I was, it wasn’t perfect, but I was happy with it. Uh, and then the book was out for awhile and I got some feedback from some other authors saying, well, you know, it’s not really not good on thumbnail, it doesn’t look that great on Amazon. The figure’s too small. It’s not really. And so I thought, no, they’re right. Actually I got the feedback and thought I need to change this. So I’m back to that design and said, oh, can we kind of bring the finger forwards? Can we highlight them? You know? And that, that was sort of all right for a while, but again, it wasn’t quite the right feel for the books.

[00:05:19] Geoff: I mean, the stories are, um, I mean they’re historical fantasy, they’re quite a, quite adventure, you know, heroic fantasy adventures, lots of swashbuckling, that kind of thing. And the main, the main character fights the rapier it’s sort of aimed at, sort of it’s in terms of the technology it’s adjacent to kind of Renaissance Europe, that sort of thing.

[00:05:39] Geoff: The cover was much more sort of grim, dark Game of Thrones type thing. Um, so then I changed again. I thought, oh, I’ll go for something completely different. And I went for a more kind of symbolic style and it had sort of a, um, a silhouette of a swordsman and kind of, you know, design around around him and that sort of thing.

[00:06:00] Geoff: And again, it was one of those things I gave the brief, and it came back and just wasn’t quite right, but I just wasn’t in a position to, at the time to go, oh, sorry, I’m going to get loads more covers done and spend loads of money. I said, I’ll live with it for the moment. I’ll change it. And, it just, yeah, it just wasn’t, it was never quite right and never quite happy with it. And then, um, I got some feedback, um, from the guys at the Wizards Warriors and Words podcast um, they did an episode.

[00:06:28] Ellie: You’re jumping ahead, Geoff!

[00:06:29] Geoff: I’m jumping ahead. Yeah. So I got some feedback on that one and I thought, right. I had to work out how I could improve that one. So I went back to the designer for that. Try this tweak it this way, tweak it that way. And at the same time, I thought sod it, I’ll just get another cover done, um, through a cheap cover designs company, um, uh, a company called GetCovers. Um, and I mean, the design for just ebook and KDP paperback, uh, would have been $35 US. And that was it. And, um, I, uh, I opted to have an audio book and hard back and I put with Ingram spark as well.

[00:07:08] Geoff: So I, I pay a bit more. And I thought well I’ve not really got anything to lose. If I like it it’s, you know, better. And, and just what came back was immediately, right. It just had the right feel for the books, had the right energy for the books. Um, I’ve got a copy here. and it just got across what, the sort of feel of the book a lot more.

[00:07:30] Ellie: So for anyone who is watching us on YouTube right now, we’ll see, this is your latest cover this is the final one.

[00:07:37] Geoff: Yeah, this is the final one and I was so happy with this. Um, when I got the first, the first sort of proof of it back, I sort of sent it back and changed it. Like it was wearing a hat, which wasn’t quite right. And, um, there’s a few things with the font that we tweaked, but I immediately then went right getting the whole series redone in the same style. Um, and now I’ve got a really solid, sort of brand for the series, they’re all done in the same style and the reception has just been so much better and just, yeah, it’s honestly, it’s probably the best thing I could have done.

[00:08:06] Ellie: So did you find they weren’t selling as well before then? Did they start performing better after you changed covers the first time?

[00:08:15] Geoff: Yeah. Noticeably. Noticeably. Um, so I had feedback on the blurb as well, which was mostly there, but it needed a few tweaks or basically to pairing down. So I immediately changed the blurb, I took the notes, went through, and right ok, I can cut that bit and I can change this and change that. Before I did the cover design. And then when the cover design came in, I put it up and the change there’s just a jump in sales straight away just from changing the cover design.

[00:08:41] Geoff: And at that point, you know, I tried, I’ve been playing around with ads, but I think because of the cover, I just not quite hitting, they weren’t converting. And straight away, put the new cover on, I’m getting more sales just from the new cover design. And I’m now at a point where I’m playing around with ads and I’m making a profit on my ads for the first time.

[00:09:02] Geoff: So yeah. Yeah. And just changed it almost overnight just by changing the cover design. The content of the book was always good. I hope.

[00:09:11] Ellie: Yes, I’m sure.

[00:09:12] Geoff: I think, based on reviews I’d like to think that. Um, but yeah, just getting the right cover that was the right fit just seems to have made such a huge difference.

[00:09:20] Ellie: So what made you decide to approach the Wizard’s Warriors and Words podcast to get them to give you some feedback? Were you nervous about approaching them for that and then what you’d hear back?

[00:09:31] Geoff: Um, I was, yeah, I, um, they did an episode, uh, which was, and for anyone who doesn’t know, it’s a podcast, which is writing advice for fantasy authors specifically. And all of the guys are indie authors. Although they do have some experience with trad pub as well.

[00:09:47] Geoff: And they did a, an episode all about what makes a good blurb and makes a good cover. And I was listening to that and I thought, hmm, I, I think they’ve had a few nails on the head. I think there’s a few things of mine which aren’t quite right. I wonder if they’d be up for doing a critique episode, if listeners sent in their links and they kind of went and checked them out.

[00:10:07] Geoff: So I got in touch with them. So it was either email, um, podcasts dress, or I got in touch with Jed Herne on Twitter, who’s one of the guys that does it and said, would you be interested in doing this? And he was like, yeah, if anybody’s up for that kind of masochism then sure, um, and they mentioned it at the end of the next podcast uh, and told me, emailed me back if you want to do that, brilliant. If you send your links through, we’ll mention it. If we get a few more people who want to do it, then we’ll do an episode or two about that. And I think three other people did it get in touch with them after that. And so they did basically, they ended up doing two episodes and they did two critiques in each episode because they sort of went so in depth on stuff.

[00:10:46] Geoff: And yeah, I was pretty nervous about what I was going to hear, but I said to them in my email, I said be brutal. Tell me what you think I need to hear, you know, and they certainly did. Uh it’s uh, it was definitely worth doing.

[00:10:59] Ellie: What sort of things did they feedback, if you, if you’re happy to share that, like was it big stuff, little stuff, lots of different stuff?

[00:11:07] Geoff: It was all sorts of things, really. I mean, the, the blurb, uh, feedback was really helpful cause it sharpened it up. They kind of went, there’s a good blurb in here, but it was too padded. There was too much stuff and oh, it’s too long, you know, kind of losing interest. Or they, one of the guys Dyrk Ashton was like, hey, I want to read this. This sounds like my kind of thing. Um, but yeah, they gave me some feedback on that, which, uh, okay. And I just sat there and kind of took notes, went right, I’m changing that, I’m changing that, I’m changing that. Uh, and, uh, that was after they did the cover and the cover was quite, yeah, it was quite brutal. But, um, I kind of went, you know, what is that like, they couldn’t tell what the silhouette was.

[00:11:43] Geoff: It was meant to be the silhouette of a swordsman, it wasn’t clear. You either need to get rid of that or make it darker. And then, cause it was sort of halfway between the sym you know, symbolic cover with lots of symbols and sort of design on it and having a central figure on it. I said, pick one or the other or, and I really, again, really zoom in on that silhouette, make that whole central bit bigger.

[00:12:04] Geoff: And, you know, they gave me some suggestions, which tweak the original design certainly have improved it, but I still, from what they were saying, no, no, they’re like you know, I don’t get the right, from the blurb, and from the cover, they said, it’s like, it’s two different books, you know? I’m not getting that.

[00:12:20] Geoff: And that was, that was I suppose, partly because when I went to look at getting that third cover done for the Swordsman’s Lament I, um, you know, I, I went and I looked at historical fantasy and, uh, on the, you know, the charts on Amazon and, and it’s a bit of a mixed bag, but there was lots of ones with silhouettes and kind of, you know, uh, figures and, you know, still fleur-de-lis design and things like that.

[00:12:44] Geoff: And I think I just got the designers to throw too much at it. There was too much going on and it wasn’t clear enough what it was.

[00:12:54] Ellie: It’s one of those things, isn’t it? Where they say don’t judge a book by its cover. But in actual fact, we know what we like, we know what we want to read and we’re looking for the same thing. Aren’t we? If a book we see looks like something we’ve read before, we kind of know what it’s going to be along similar lines, right? And that’s what people are looking for.

[00:13:12] Geoff: Exactly. I think it’s one of those things, people need to be able to look at your cover, know where it sits on the shelf in a bookshop. They need to look at the cover and get from that the genre and sub genre, and maybe even, you know, what similar authors, that sort of thing. It doesn’t mean you necessarily want to be a copycat, but you have to be really aware of the trends, the current in the genre and the sub genre that you’re writing in.

[00:13:37] Geoff: And again, I think with that initial design, I was trying, I was harking back too much to the classic book of the nineties that I grew up reading, um, which had always lovely illustrated covers, but of course they were designed to catch your eye on a bookshelf and a bookshop. They were designed to be seen, you know, this big physically to be picked up and held. And obviously all book covers are designed for that.

[00:13:59] Geoff: But I’ve been realistic as an independent author, your main marketplace is online. You know, your, your Amazon is your storefront. And I’m wide so I’m on all the ebook retailers and, and that sort of thing. But realistically at the moment, Amazon is the main, the main thing. And yeah, so I just don’t think it was quite it just didn’t really fit with what was contemporary and it didn’t really fit with what was in the genre and sub genre.

[00:14:23] Geoff: And again, then with the second one, I sort of went too far the other way and tried to chuck too much stuff at it and it just ended up being a bit of a muddle.

[00:14:30] Ellie: A collage of modern fantasy books?

[00:14:34] Geoff: The funny thing, is all of them, one of the examples I gave um, as sort of comp title was The Greatcoats series by Sebastien de Castell, which again is kind of swashbuckling, fantasy story. And the first couple designs just didn’t pick up on that at all. And with this, with the third design, again, this one I sort of briefed, I couldn’t afford an illustrated cover.

[00:14:58] Geoff: Um, so this is all, you know, Photoshop and stock, stock art and different things.

[00:15:03] Ellie: It’s great, it’s a really beautiful cover.

[00:15:04] Geoff: Lovely, isn’t it?

[00:15:06] Ellie: I really like it.

[00:15:07] Geoff: And you probably can’t see on there, but you’ve got little detail of sort of, um, castles and things in the background, on the back it’s the same. It carries over. It’s really lovely, almost textured. But one of the things I gave them was that kind of Sebastien de Castell cover design as an inspiration and also the UK versions of some Brandon Sanderson’s stuff, both of which have figures on, but a bit more stylised.

[00:15:29] Geoff: So again, you’ve got the, you’ve got the silhouette there with all the other stuff going on in the middle, um, without it being a fully realistic, you know. You don’t really want photo realistic fantasy, you might want illustrated, but if you can’t get illustrated, you have to sort of think your way around a little bit. Cause that’s very expensive usually.

[00:15:50] Ellie: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s either pay a lot of money or learn Photoshop. And I definitely don’t have the ability to do either, so…

[00:15:58] Geoff: I don’t, I don’t, you know, I don’t have the time to do my own covers or to learn Photoshop. So again, you know, that design didn’t break the bank, that was relatively cheap.

[00:16:08] Ellie: Um, I’m impressed with the cost. When you said $35. .I was thinking, I dunno, maybe you get what you pay for with these kind of things. I never heard of such a cheap cover, obviously turned out well, so we’ll make sure we’ll link them in the show notes. So people check them out.

[00:16:24] Geoff: They’re actually, they’re a company, um, uh, GetCovers are based out of the Ukraine. Um, so it felt quite nice to be sending some money in that direction at the moment, even if it wasn’t megabucks and, but that’s, they’re sitting there a sister company to a, another independent covers company called, um, I never quite know how to pronounce it. It’s spelled N I B L art, and I’m sure it’s NIBLart art or NIBL art. Um, but they’re sort of sister companies and, um, NIBL art is more expensive. It’s more like a couple of hundred dollars a cover, that sort of thing. So I think GetCovers is sort of the junior arm where they kind of get their junior designers trained up by doing lots of different covers for lots of different things. And so you get cost effective covers. Um, but again, you can get quite a decent result if you have a good brief and give the right feedback.

[00:17:10] Ellie: So be specific then, definitely.

[00:17:12] Geoff: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s difficult because you want to know what you want, but at the same time they’re the designers. So I sort of gave examples of sort of thing I was after and then said, you guys know, you’re the designers, you know, what’s current, you know what’s popular and what’s selling in the genre. That’s, that’s your jobs. But this is the sort of thing I’m looking for, I’m looking forward to seeing what you come back with and yeah. What they came back with just blew me away, really.

[00:17:37] Ellie: Yeah, it’s excellent. So since erm, changing to the new covers again, then, and obviously fitting into the genre better, they’ve obviously improved exponentially and sell a lot more now, yes?

[00:17:49] Geoff: Yeah. And, um, the new cover designs as well, uh, just got so much more engagement on social media from them. Um, you know, I just, I just, I didn’t even have to use any hashtags or anything like that. I just tweeted, oh, I can’t stop looking at my new cover, you know, heart eyes emoji and the copy of the cover design and it just went so, well for me anyway, ballistic and book bloggers, getting in touch, asking for a copy saying, oh, it looks interesting. And I got a couple of BookTube reviews off the back of that. And just, yeah, it just, it just sort of ballooned out from there a little bit, really. I’m not going to say it went viral in any way, shape or form, but let’s just say it was yeah, the most engagement I’ve had on all my social media.

[00:18:30] Ellie: So then I’d be interested to know what would be your advice for someone who is looking to maybe use you as a cautionary tale and perhaps maybe nail it on the first try. What would be your advice for them when they start looking at covers then?

[00:18:44] Geoff: Well, don’t be impulsive, like me. Don’t settle for stuff. Um, uh, one of my problems is I just want to, I wanna be doing all the things, all at once, and have stuff done now. And I need to be more patient with things. So take the time to get it right. Um, do research into your genre and sub genre, look at the comp titles. And if you’re struggling to figure out what your comp titles are, you know, if you have beta readers, people that read your book, um, or people that read widely in the genre that you know, go to them and talk to them about it. Have a look at the comp titles, the ones that you think are good.

[00:19:17] Geoff: Go and have a look on Amazon, have a look at the best selling stuff in the various subtypes, you know, the various sub genres your book fits into. And just, yeah, just, just be honest with yourself about what it is you need from the book cover. It’s not something well I mean, it is something you want to hang on your wall, but primarily, it’s job is to catch the attention of the reader. It’s job is to get across the genre and sub genre. Um, and to be that first thing people say that makes them then click through to read the blurb, you know, or if it’s on an ad, you want them to go cool. Well that book’s £2.99, I’ll have a look at that, you know? You want it to be appealing to people.

[00:19:51] Geoff: And then when you get the design back and you get your first kind of design back, take the time to look at it next to Amazon. So shrink it down to the same size as the thumbnails, have Amazon open on screen, have it, have the design open on the screen and put it next to the books you’re talking about at the same size as the thumbnail erm, on Amazon, all the other retailers, and just see how it fits. And if there’s something that’s not quite right, or it was bit off, go back to the design and see if you can change it.

[00:20:18] Ellie: That’s really interesting because then you can see, a) if it is eye catching enough, right? It also b) how well it does fit in next to the rest of the genre, can’t you?

[00:20:27] Geoff: Yeah, exactly. It’s getting that kind of side-by-side, um, vision. And, you know, I mean, like with, with the first cover design, it’s really monochrome, it’s almost black and white and actually that, you know, it needed some color, it needed something to catch the eye a bit more.

[00:20:41] Geoff: Um, and with the, the latest one, you’ve got this sort of dash of red and it’s a bit more textured, you know, it’s much more eye catching.

[00:20:49] Ellie: Yeah the colour is beautiful.

[00:20:50] Geoff: And just, yeah, really, if I’d done that with the first cover, I would have realised it didn’t fit. And then I would have realised in the first place and perhaps got a different, you know, gone back and made some changes.

[00:21:00] Geoff: But if I hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have learned the valuable lessons. I’ve now learned about getting your cover right.

[00:21:04] Ellie: And passing on all that useful information to our listeners. So there you go.

[00:21:10] Geoff: Hopefully useful.

[00:21:12] Ellie: Definitely useful. We do have one question that we ask all of our interviewees, which is what one book changed your life.

[00:21:22] Geoff: Oh, yeah, no, that’s a good one. Um…

[00:21:25] Ellie: I know you’ve listened to the podcast, so you should have been expecting this.

[00:21:30] Geoff: I’ve sort of been a bit torn about which one to pick really, but, um, it would probably be, if I’ve got it right here. I would have to say it’s The Dragonbone Chair by Tad Williams, which is the first book in his classic Memory, Sorrow & Thorn trilogy, which came out in the late eighties, early nineties. Um, and it’s the first series I read. I mean, I was only 10 or 11 when I picked up, picked this up and actually it was, again, it was the book cover that caught my eye, of the second book in the series. And I was walking, I was in my book shop and I saw this guy peering out at me and thought oh, he looks cool.

[00:22:05] Ellie: That’s a nice book spine, isn’t it?

[00:22:06] Geoff: It’s a beautiful cover design. Michael Whelan did the illustration, you know. Picked it up, read the back, went, oh, now it’s book two and they didn’t have that one in stock. So I had to wait for them to get the first book in. Um, and you know, I’d read widely, widely up to that point. Um, but this was the first sort of proper fantasy book that I read, you know, um, And it just hooked me.

[00:22:30] Geoff: It’s such a especially important series in the genre. And I don’t think, it’s starting to get the credit that it’s due, mainly because George R. R. Martin said it inspired him to write The Game of Thrones series, and off the back of that, a lot more people are discovering it now. Um, but it really shifted what people were doing with fantasy.

[00:22:48] Geoff: You know, a lot of Tolkein-esque stuff had been happening, you know? Um, and then it sort of. It was a darker, more adult take on, on fantasy in a lot of ways. And it shifted the genre on a bit. And I didn’t, and after that, I mean, it was a long wait from book two to book three coming out. I’m fortunate cause it’s huge, is like one of the biggest books ever published in the English language again, I’ve got that here and it is honestly, it’s massive.

[00:23:14] Geoff: It’s printed on Bible paper.

[00:23:16] Ellie: Oh my goodness!

[00:23:20] Geoff: Can’t remember how many, it’s like a thousand. and sixty pages long or something.

[00:23:24] Ellie: That would just put me off to be honest with you. If I saw a book that was a thousand pages, I just think I might buy it, it’ll look nice on my shelf, but I’m never going to read it.

[00:23:34] Geoff: It was so big when they published it, they couldn’t publish the paperback as one. They had to split it into two, and subsequently a lot of his other series have started off as trilogies and become four book series, uh, including these basic returns to that, to that world. But while I was waiting for the third book in the series to come out, I just dived into the fantasy section of my local bookshop and just ripped through everything.

[00:23:56] Geoff: And it was then I discovered Terry Pratchett, um, Robin Hobb, Neil Gaiman, Douglas Adams, uh, David Gemmell, David Eddings, people like that. Um, and that really proved the foundation in fantasy that lead to me writing my own books, all these years later. So I would say that is the book that changed my life.

[00:24:15] Ellie: Kick started your passion for fantasy.

[00:24:18] Geoff: Yeah, exactly. It’s what got me hooked.

[00:24:20] Ellie: I love that. That’s a good choice. That’s a good choice. Um, just one last question then for you, if that’s okay. Where can I lovely listeners go to find out more about you?

[00:24:32] Geoff: Uh, well, there’s my website, which is gmwhite.co.uk. Uh, and then I’m on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook as @GMWhiteWrites.

[00:24:42] Geoff: So I’ve got the same handle on all of them. Uh, to be honest, I probably most active on Twitter. But, uh, but yeah, um, I’m on Facebook primarily, so it should be fairly easy to find.

[00:24:53] Ellie: Perfect. Well, thank you very much for joining me here today.

[00:24:56] Geoff: Well, thank you so much for having me, really happy to be here.

[00:24:58]

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[00:25:45] Ellie: Keep writing.

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